• Registered: 30-03-2010
  • Posts: 10

Topic: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Hi,

Please could you point me in the right direction?

I have been making bread, according to the packet recipe, using Allinson's Very Strong white bread flour and active dried yeast (two proovings). I make sure that the bowl and flour are warm and use an electric hand mixer with dough hooks. The yeast forms a beautiful, tall head of froth and the dough mix is always lovely - soft and elastic. The dough easily doubles in size during its' two 1 1/2 hr provings in a warm (approx. 60 to 90 degree), gently cooling oven. (Although it does seem to rise slightly less the second time, after 5 mins of knocking-back.) I bake it for 15 mins at 220 degrees in a fan oven, then lower to 190 degrees for 25 mins. The dough is baked in the proving oven, I just turn up the temp for the final cooking.

My question(s): I usually have a BIG pocket of air all the way under the top crust. The loaf underneath is a good texture, although just a little on the heavy/close/yeasty side, but has a flat profile underneath the deceptively mounded crust!

Please, how can I a) get rid of that giant air bubble and b) get the loaf to rise more in the tin before/during baking, forming a lighter texture?

Do you think that the dough might be too wet? Should I slit the top (don't currently)? Am I proving for the wrong amount of time? Would it help to bake in a seperate oven which has been brought up to baking temperature?

Trying hard to get this right as I love to have fresh bread available. Would like to get the combination of techniques just right. Many thanks in advance, I would really appreciate your comments and tips.

  • Registered: 01-09-2009
  • Posts: 386

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

I would definitely try slashing the loaf before it goes in the oven, and do make sure the oven is at full temperature before baking.
If using a dough hook only knead for 4-5 mins as you could be over kneading the dough, otherwise is sounds as if you are doing  everything right! Let us know how you get on!

  • Registered: 30-03-2010
  • Posts: 10

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Oooh, thank you very much! I will try again using your tips and let you know how it goes.

Didn't realise that using mechanical dough hooks might be a problem if overused, that's interesting (will try lowering the speed setting for them a bit too in that case - I think last time I used the 'pulverise' speed setting thinking that might help, when I should maybe have just stayed with the 'knead' speed setting).

I'm SO determined to learn to be good at bread making .... will let you know what happens on my next attempt  smile Thank you, much appreciated ....

  • Registered: 23-03-2011
  • Posts: 1

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

high
as new bread maker homestyle I have baked 2 loaves with different results.My first attempt the dough was okay texturer wise and the crust superb but the underside especially the center was to spongy
My second attempt the dough rose higher again the crust and texture was good although the crust was a little browner than it should have been,and the dough was a litle brown and again the bottom was the same result.
could anyone give me a hint before I try again?

cookiebarkid

  • Registered: 30-03-2010
  • Posts: 10

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Hi, Buell8abe here again,

I have been waiting to try bread baking again until my stand mixer arrived... and today was the day! But still having problems:

Everything was going perfectly (kneaded for less time with the mixer, slit the loaf - everything you suggested), and the proved loaf looked wonderful! Until I *moved* the dough after its' second proving out of the main oven into a pre-warmed half-oven so that I could heat up the main oven to baking temperature. Result: the dough sank instantly as I opened the door and moved it, and I have a flat loaf!

So tomorrow I'm going to try proving in the main oven and turning that up to cooking temp., but just on regular (not fan) setting as I'm wondering whether it was the air movement which was upsetting the dough when I turned it up to cook (using my old method, earlier post)? I know that you advised not to do this but it's partly just an experiment as I haven't tried this yet!

If that doesn't work then I will try proving in the half-oven and transferring to the main, pre-heated oven to cook, but I suspect that the dough will flop once again. However, for this second attempt I will also try adding a little less liquid and/or more flour to the dough as I still suspect that it may still be a little wet and I have been too cautious in adding more flour - i.e. not enough so far!

If that doesn't work then I will try proving at a lower temperature, on the worktop rather than in an oven - would that perhaps be less risky, i.e. no sudden temperature drop when moving it into the hot oven for final cooking?

Thank you once again for your help, will let you know what happens next time(s)! I'm sure that when everything is just right it will all seem sooo easy...! Frustration breeds determination  ........ Any further comments very welcome.

  • Registered: 30-03-2010
  • Posts: 10

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Success!

My bread is getting better, a couple of things seem to have made a difference: I have made the dough slightly less sticky by adding a touch more flour while the mixer is kneading. (A new mixer takes some getting-used-to! It's so efficient that I have to be extremely careful not to overdo it with the beaters and to really keep an eye on the texture.) In combination with the next point ...

Here's where your advice *really* helped: I don't have a seperate oven large enough to prove in, but have left the loaves to prove on the worktop until properly risen, covered with a cloth. (i.e. instead of turning up the heat while still in the oven.) Putting the risen loaves straight into the pre-heated oven seems to do the trick!

Thanks for your help smile

  • Registered: 12-05-2010
  • Posts: 4

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

you know you don't need warmth from an oven to prove, you can put it near a boiler or do what a friend of mine does, places the whole lot with bowl in a large plastic bag and places it in the airing cupboard.  Some doughs don't need heat, they just require a constant not cold and draft free environment (sourdoughs don't need warmth at all, just about 20 hours first proving time).  Another point about baking bread is to have put the oven on at max temperature for about half an hour before putting the loaf in as this high blast of heat will help the bread to rise in the first 5-10 minutes of baking, turn the oven down by a third after that time.  Also, try getting some real bread flour that doesn't consist of raising agents  (reading the ingredients doesn't help as the current law states they don't have to detail the additives), as all flours purchased at most supermarkets do.  Bacheldre (can get that brand at Waitrose) and Shipton Mills are a couple of the best quality I have found and they can be ordered over the net, max 48 hours delivery time.  If you really like bread making then you'll love the different types of flours available.  Have fun...

  • Registered: 30-03-2010
  • Posts: 10

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Hello Persian Rose smile

Thank you so much for your comments - I have tried using an airing cupboard for the second proving which was a great success! It was just a few degrees hotter than the house temp. and draft-free, which the dough absolutely loved! It actually rose in very good time, I thought that I would have to wait half a day but was pleasantly surprised. I made loads of Hot Cross Buns for Easter with the same method. Mmmm.

Also the hot blast of a fully heated oven did seem to help the dough keep its loft.

Next I will look for other flours, although I'm a great Allinson's fan as their flour is very reliable, but it would be lovely to try some of those you mentioned. I will investigate, my mouth is watering just at the thought! Many thanks for your help ..... x

  • Registered: 01-01-1970
  • Posts: 11

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Dear Buell8abe,

The problem that you had with your loaf is called a 'flying crust' and can be caused by several things - I was plagued by this problem when I first started making bread.

I discovered that my own problem was due to leaving the dough too long on the first rising and not using enough yeast.
Yeast 'tires' and starts slowing down, blowing big bubbles into the dough instead of nice, small, even ones, which results in that huge 'attic' you get between the crust and the bread.

I increased the yeast and stopped leaving the dough too long to rise - proving as well....the oven should do some of the work.

Something I have recently discovered - don't be tempted to add too much flour to your dough, a more moist dough aids rising and proving and gives a much lighter, softer texture to your bread.

Jacquie.

  • Registered: 30-03-2010
  • Posts: 10

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Hi Jacquie,

That's really interesting! Thank you, and it's reassuring to know that I'm not the only one with 'flying crusts'! The more I try baking bread the more I love it, but it seems to be very sensitive to particular conditions, machines and so on. Fascinating! All the practice is gradually imparting a feel for how it should be tho' I think... I will try with your suggestions.

I really appreciate all this help from more experienced cooks, what a great site. Thank you! x

  • Registered: 08-05-2011
  • Posts: 1

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Hello could anyone help
I love baking and have started to try to make my own bread ( like mum used to make ) but its not turning out like mums bread.
Its really dence and is not at all light.  My husband said" never mind because we now have new doorstops." always on hand to offer support LOL
I'm hand kneading and it proves really well, I get the oven really hot to start with
I have tried all different recipes.
Could anyone tell where I'm going wrong
Thanks

Last edited by stine (08-05-2011 09:44:17)

  • Registered: 01-01-1970
  • Posts: 11

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

stine, what sort of yeast are you using?

  • Registered: 30-03-2010
  • Posts: 10

Re: Air pocket under crust, flat loaf.

Hey guys,

The Thread Originator here again: After struggling and feeling at a loss at the start of all this, I just wanted to say a big Thank You, your advice has been brilliant:

Yesterday we had spiced buns (hot cross buns, without the crosses), amazing pizza today, and now I can produce great, fluffy bread with no giant air pockets under the crusts. YAY! Still haven't tried any local organic flour which is top of my shopping list. But I am REALLY getting the hang of this bread making thang. Thank you SO MUCH - very happy, loads of top quality, delicious fresh bread - on demand! big_smile I'm going to teach all my grandchildren to make their own bread.

And just a note for anyone else out there starting to make bread by hand and getting all frustrated like I did - keep going, however long it takes ... it is SO worh it!